New York To New You ft. Manoj Gupta

We spend a lot of time talking about the quality engineering of systems and processes. We spend considerably less time talking about the quality engineering related to ourselves and our everyday actions and reactions.

To that end, Manoj Gupta, Qualitest MD of UK and Western Europe, joins Matthew Heusser and Michael Larsen, to talk about his book “New York to New You” and how we can apply the same rigor we do to our coding and testing efforts to build and improve the quality in ourselves.

References:

• Manoj Gupta
• New York to NEW YOU: THE 31/7 ODYSSEY
• The Phoenix Project: A Novel about IT, DevOps, and Helping Your Business Win
• Larry Bilotta: What Causes a “Midlife Crisis”?

Transcript:

Michael Larsen (INTRO):

Hello and welcome to The Testing Show: Episode 115: New York To New You

This show was recorded on Monday, May 16, 2022.

In this episode, we welcome Manoj Gupta to talk about his book “New York to New You”. A lot of time we talk about the quality of systems and processes. Today, the focus is on aspects of quality engineering we can apply to ourselves and how to make ourselves better when it comes to everyday actions and reactions.

And with that, on with the show.

Matthew Heusser (00:00):
Thanks, Michael. So welcome back to The Testing Show. This episode, we have Manoj Gupta, who’s a Managing Director at Qualitest. He’s responsible for UK and European operations. Did I get that right?

Manoj Gupta (00:15):
Oh yes.

Matthew Heusser (00:16):
You started out as an engineer. You really sort of cut your teeth at Tata Consultancy, which I think is probably the world’s largest technology consulting firm at this point. You were there 11 years and you rose up through the ranks. By the time you left, you were running business units. So all the way from analyst to team lead to program manager to executive. Eventually after a couple of companies you came to Qualitest. I just covered a very long career in a very short period of time. Did I miss anything important in there?

Manoj Gupta (00:49):
No, I think you covered it well. I would say that at Tata, you know, when I started, we were just $100 million and when I left, we were about $10 billion in size. It was a fantastic journey and thereafter. The other two organizations have had a wonderful learning for me before I joined Qualitest.

Matthew Heusser (01:09):
That is amazing. I know Michael was at Cisco when they had that kind of fantastic growth. I haven’t personally experienced 100000% growth.

Michael Larsen (01:21):
It comes with its advantages and disadvantages, to say the least.

Matthew Heusser (01:24):
Yeah, and so the one thing we like to ask our guests, especially the ones that are more senior, what made you particularly interested in testing and quality? You kind of moved from general tech into test and quality later in your career, is that right? And what made you interested in making the change?

Manoj Gupta (01:45):
Testing and quality has always been a passion of mine. The first project, which I did, what started my career with was testing and quality assurance, which was for a large Swiss banking corporation. And then moved into the career where testing was certainly associated as I moved into development support and various other side of things. And you know what? Testing has grown up at a different league as we have moved from Waterfall to Agile and DevOps methodology. We are not just talking of testing as quality assurance. We are now talking testing as a brand assurance. Testing is something which is sitting just before go live and the application completed and before any product is to be handed over to the consumer. So when we are talking with the e-commerce business, when we are talking of something where your entire business and commerce is linked with only channel ways of working or only channel ways of interacting with your systems, it is not just testing. It is the brand assurance side of things.

Matthew Heusser (02:54):
Brand assurance. Yes. That’s something we wanna talk about today. I think testing can be a preventive mechanism to help ensure brand assurance, but I’d never heard it put the way you put it. So we definitely want to get to that. If it’s all right, though, let’s start out with the book “New York to New You”. Can you tell us a little bit about it?

Manoj Gupta (03:15):
Yeah, sure. This book, as I was growing up in my career in Tata, when I joined, we were just about shy of $100 million, and growth was 100x in a very short period of time. Things were moving on the highway at a speed which was unthinkable and the growth in the career was, as well, moving very fast. Once you start getting everything, there is a void which starts getting into you as to, “What am I doing? What do I really want? Where do I really want to go?” And there are so many complexities which professionals and you deal every day, day in, day out. This book, “New York to New You”, is all about dealing with the everyday complexities of the professional’s life that can be resolved by using some simple and powerful tools. Further to that, I would say that it teaches you some of the simple techniques to discover and explore yourself in terms of how to live in harmony with the external world, irrespective of what is going through inside or outside. I would also say that one can use this as a playbook to transform and see how can you get into your fullest of potential, where you can be productive and dynamic when you are dealing with the outer world and the same time can remain peaceful and joyful within your internal or inner world.

Michael Larsen (04:42):
So Manoj, I’ll be honest, I’ve skimmed through the book mostly, but I’ve been intrigued on the ideas behind it. I only say that I’ve skimmed through it because I’ll know I’ll be admonished because you do point out at the beginning, it’s meant to be read thoroughly and deliberately. Having said that, as I read through this book, I get the feeling that this reminds me a lot of “The Phoenix Project”, which was able to take DevOps ideas and put it into a novelized form so that a broader population could understand and relate to the ideas behind it. As I’m reading this, again, “New York to New You” reminds me a bit of that. It feels like you’re taking principles, but rather than just, “Hey, here’s a how-to guide to go do stuff”, You’re actually putting somebody in the perspective as a narrator so that you can discuss it in the realm of a story, which I find a very effective way of doing that. Now, having said all that, does that seem like a fair comparison? And if it isn’t, how might you phrase it differently than that? And more to the point, is it fair for me to say that what this is is it’s a novelization of human engineering?

Manoj Gupta (05:57):
Hey, Michael, I would say you have put it very well in terms of the analogy. Let me expand a bit around this. Yes, this book is all centered around the human engineering and the way I worked around it is to look at how the conscious, to subconscious, to unconscious side of the human engineering works. Now, if look at the conscious side of things, the entire transactions work in three phases. Whatever you perceive from the world, which is the perceiving or perception aspect you process as inside your system, which is at the emotional or intellectual layer. And then you responded back to the world. So this is all the three stage process that is recept, react and respond. What I did is I said, “Okay, let me create the entire human engineering chart across seven layers. And those seven layers are as follows: your physical layer; your emotional layer; your intellectual layer, memory, which is the fourth layer; fifth, which is ego, is the layer; sixth, which is the seed, the kernel, which I have called it; and seventh, the unmanifest, which there are called soul or spirit or unmanifest form of things. All the seven layers, how they systematically, mathematically work around, that’s the entire depiction in this book. And around that, I brought in the “ABCD” methodology, which is to upkeep this entire bit of the seven layers, because it was a pretty tough subject. Abstract. As you rightly said, I created a creative fiction around this nonfiction where a banker or investment banker, very successful guy, darling, on the Wall Street who had everything right from wealth to fame, to love to titles, whatever one can think of. One fine day falls from cliffhanger and goes into a zone where he’s declared fugitive by government. His girlfriend has left him. He is completely shattered physically and mentally. And from there, he gets into a transformation zone while understanding these seven layers of human engineering step by step. And then following those principles of ABCD, which I call it, Any Body Can Do, but here actually “A” stands for “Awareness”, “B” stands for “Breathing”, “C” stands for “Choices”, and “D” stands for “Discipline”. And there are specific tools and simple techniques which one can implement and find themselves where they are extremely productive and dynamic when they’re dealing in the outer world. And when they are with their thoughts and emotions, that is in internal world, they can find themselves to be in peace. And with joy.

Michael Larsen (08:59):
Fantastic. Should also probably add, I believe (or maybe I’m spoiling here), that there is a fifth element and that’s “E” <laugh>, which is “Experiment”.

Manoj Gupta (09:09):
Yep, there is. Very well said. When you are learning A, B, C, and D, one has to “Experiment”. One has to explore. One has to implement. And that’s very clearly there in the book as well, with the character who is asked to explore, who is asked to experiment, and who’s asked to imbibe and take it forward.

Matthew Heusser (09:30):
Can you give us an example? I think it’s pretty clear in the book where you’ve got all those difficult scenarios where his life just sort of falls apart, and we can either collapse into sadness or at least face the issues that are facing us head on. I see that awareness, breathing, choices, discipline as mindfulness techniques to bring us out of our fears about what might happen into the present moment. Can you walk us through what that might look like in a software organization? We’re trying to get the software out. We found some bugs. We have a test plan. Things are running late. What now?

Manoj Gupta (10:15):
Sure, sounds good. When you are into a software development, software testing, or software maintenance environment, things are running extremely fast and the move we are moving towards the DevOps and Agile methodology. It’s a continuous development, continuous deployment kind of scenario, where testing is sitting in middle of it. In an anology world, there is an airport physically where continuous landing and takeoff of flights are happening. And the testing or the quality assurance guys are actually like the air traffic control who have an extremely critical responsibility to ensure that whatever is going into production environment for deployment is bug free, is error free. Now for that, you need to have awareness of the highest level. You need to be in that present moment to ensure that the decision making which you are taking by testing the code is something which is impeccable before you say, “Yes”, or approve stamp for it to go into production, because it’s not about the quality assurance it’s linking to the brand assurance.

Michael Larsen (11:29):
So I realize that when we talk about these things, it’s really easy to rush through them and say, “Oh yeah, you’ve got awareness, you’ve got breathing, et cetera, et cetera. For me, oftentimes, I know that I get frustrated when I hear these type of podcasts because they blow through them so fast. “You get that? Yeah! It’s clear as mud. Thank you very much!” <laugh> so I’m going to, if you don’t mind -and for our audience members, I hope you don’t feel like I’m selling you short here- I’m gonna ask if you will, could you possibly, since we’ve already talked about awareness, I appreciate that. And we’re gonna move on to breathing. Could you, while we do this for the remaining elements, let’s make sure that we can get a good chunk of each of them so that we can think about them? Basically, I’m saying, can you make this a little bit more simple for someone like me to grok? <Laugh>

Manoj Gupta (12:20):
Sounds good. You know, Michael, the way I touched upon awareness, and we talked about the three step process, which is “Recept, React, and Respond” in the human engineering. And for that, you need to have Awareness in place. Let me take a step back. For one to improve their physical personality, what do you do? You go regular exercising, go to gym, and eat healthy. Now there is a subtle level, which is the emotional endurance level. That emotional endurance level comes from Breathing. Now, many of us may not even be able to appreciate what I’m going to say or I’m seeing over here. If you go take a deep dive into human engineering, the entire nervous system of human engineering is part of two aspects. One is the voluntary aspect. And second is the involuntary aspect. When I talk about voluntary, you and I running, talking, or listening to someone is a voluntary activity. You have a choice to go for a job, or you have a choice to watch a tele. You have a choice to take a nap, or you have a choice to go to gym. So that’s the voluntary aspect of things. The involuntary aspect of human engineering or inside is beating of heart, circulation of oxygen, running of blood within the ways. All these things continue to happen inside the human body, Irrespective whether you are sitting, standing or sleeping. There are two faculties within humans. One is voluntary, and one is involuntary. Involuntary is something where we have further two aspects, which is called a “fight or flight” mode. I’m making it simple, which is called sympathetic nervous system or “rest or digest”, which is called a parasympathetic nervous system. Within this voluntary function. Breathing is the only voluntary function which has the power to alter your involuntary functions or systems. What do I mean to say here? If you are in a state where you are stressed because of some important meeting or because of your manager being angry upon you, or you have to do some reports, you will notice your breathing pattern where you’ll have a short breath. Think about another scenario where you are standing in a front of beach and what you say? “Ah! What a beautiful air!” and all of a sudden your breathing becomes long. So long breathe has a different emotions. Shorter breathe has a different emotions. Now, the question comes, if I’m tense, my breathing pattern would be short and if I’m relaxed, my breathing pattern would be long. You can actually reverse it by regulating your breathe pattern by becoming aware of your breathing patterns. Wherein if you are making a conscious effort of long breathing regulation aspect, you will not find yourself into any of this stress zone.

Manoj Gupta (15:34):
And this is how the parasympathetic nervous system writes all about the autonomic nervous system inside our defined human architecture works. And that’s what I’ve defined in the book as well. This is just about not what is happening inside. I’ve also given certain tools. There are two techniques. If you practice these two breathing techniques, you will find how you can invigorate your parasympathetic nervous system or sympathetic nervous system. And that’s the power of breathing, which can make you productive and dynamic when you are dealing with the outside world and at the same time, peaceful and joyful when you are with your thoughts, when you are with your emotions. For bringing the physical endurance, you need to go to gym every day. For bringing the emotional endurance, You need to make sure that you practice breathing every day.

Matthew Heusser (16:30):
What you are saying about breathing, if I can pause for a moment on it… testers are critical people. The job is to go find the problems, find the statements that are wrong. It’s very easy to mock breathing. At one point, I had a lot of skepticism and I looked into it. Larry Billota is kind of an expert that I follow. And he talks about when there’s chaos going on out there. “Oh my gosh, what is going on? Look at all the craziness.” Imagine that you are in a cabin in the woods with a big glass window, with a fire going and hot cocoa and plenty of everything that you need watching an incredible snowstorm. You can see the chaos going on out there but you are fine and you don’t have to let it overwhelm you. By focusing on our breathing. It focuses me to… I can’t think about two things at once. I have to think about what is going on in my body at this very moment. I am breathing in. That is the thing that I’m doing. And while I’m doing that, my brain doesn’t have room to think about the chaos that is happening around me. I dare say that if you are in software testing and you’ve never experienced chaos before, you either haven’t been in it very long, or your position is more fortunate than most. And I’d love to hear about where you work and have you on the show. So I just wanted to spend a second and reinforce breathing, cuz I think it’s important and it’s easy to dismiss and it shouldn’t be so. And that brings us to “Choices”. We’ve calmed ourselves down and now we’ve got a fresh look at what’s happening. An observation instead of being immersed in the chaos. What do we do now?

Manoj Gupta (18:24):
Interesting. What you said, Matt, when it comes to choices. I think one of the stark thing, which many of the folks are not even aware on this planet is that it’s only human beings among all the species across the planet is the only faculty where we have been endowed with this blessings of choices. And this blessing of choices works at a third layer of human engineering, which I call the intellectual layer. When you get into a zone where you know how to regulate the breathing appropriately, that’s where the time where you start seeing the world with much more clarity, irrespective of whether it is a chaos or harmony. As you rightly said, Matt, as example of chaos within the software world, because things are continuously moving as a part of A to B to C to D and so on and so forth zones. So in that the principle which comes into play is attachment versus detachment when you are making choices. And when you start regulating your breathing, you will find yourself in a zone where you are more detached. Sticking to your point, Matt, the state of chaos. Let me take an example in terms of scenario, you are driving a car. It’s a very busy traffic. You are caught up into a traffic jam. You have a meeting in 30 minutes and you are getting delayed. What is your thinking going on? “Oh my gosh, what is happening? Oh my gosh, am I going to get delayed?” These are the emotions continuously coming into your head because at this point of time, you are stuck into the traffic, but the same, you sitting on a 10th floor apartment, seeing that traffic below listening to a music. When you see that traffic, you look at the traffic from your window and you say, “Ah, traffic”, and then you go back to your music. That’s where I call the scenario of attachment versus detachment. In the scenario one, because your breathing patterns are short, you will recognize when you are sitting in the car where your breathing patterns become short. Your choices becomes where you get into a mode where you attach to the situation. When you are looking from the 10th floor apartment, you are in a situation of detachment. You look at things very differently. So the choices mode, how do I make that choice? Whether I’m attached to that chaotic situation or where I’m regulating my breathing pattern and I’m detached and then making a choice is, something… The name of the game?

Michael Larsen (21:12):
I think that works. If I can sum, I guess, I would look to say that, of course, we have our awareness and our breathing, but see through choices is an action. We can put into action. What we choose to do. I work from home. I’m greatly blessed in that regard. A lot of the things that are day to day frustrations for some of my coworkers, if they have a long commute and they have to deal with that, I don’t have to, but at the same time, I do have to deal with what they’re going through. So if somebody that I’m working with on the other side of the country has had a really rough day and they’re frustrated and they’re not at their best, that does affect me. And so now I have a choice as to how I respond to that. I can either say, “Okay, they’re having a rough time with this.” Is this a time where I just go, “Oh, well sucks for them and I guess I’ll just wait”? Or is this a time where I can say, “Hey, you seem to be struggling here. How can I help you so that we can move on together?” Make sense?

Manoj Gupta (22:23):
It does. I like the word action. See the choices is all about choosing how and where you need to react or respond as an action. So as I talked about breathing, endorse your emotional aspect of human engineering. So whatever you are receiving, the three stage process (recept, react, and respond), in the process of breathing, the reaction aspect becomes much more balanced. In the response aspect, as an action, when you are responding to the world, you are not impromptu reacting but you are making an informed choice and then responding to the world outside world to whatever is happening. And that’s where the choices come into play. That’s where it’s very strongly linked or closely connected to the breathing. And that’s where the attachment to detachment comes into play. Because when your breathing is regulated, your emotions are balanced. And when your emotions are balanced, you are not attached to that chaos, but you’re taking a step back in a detached way, looking at objectively and instead of reacting, responding to it with much more calm and composed way.

Matthew Heusser (23:41):
Yeah, I think that the best example I have with this is parenting small children where they say, “Five more minutes, TV, five more minutes, five more minutes.” It’s easy to either give in or to get angry and say, “No”, they can reach an age where you’re not gonna physically stop them. They’re gonna be defiant. Or you can step back and breathe and say, “I can’t make you brush your teeth. You’re that big, but you’re not gonna get sugary sweets anymore at all, until you brush your teeth every night”, or you could yell at them. Yelling would be a reaction and the more intellectual consequence oriented thought is responding. And I would again submit that we probably have those every day in software, going back to choices for a minute. That’s what we’re talking about. What are we gonna do? Cuz we talk about awareness and breathing, a lot of people that go there kind of get stuck. It’s not what you do. It’s about being, but at the end of the day, we wanna take corrective action. We wanna do things. Do we do more testing? Do we let the software go? Do we provide information to decision makers so they can make the decision? What data do we have? But I think that’s what we’re getting at. When it comes to choices back on the software, back in the testing world, am I with you on that? Or did I miss something in there?

Manoj Gupta (25:14):
No, no. I think you are very much on the spot. In the software testing world, it is again a continuous decision making, a choice making aspect. And if you are aware about the present scenario and if you are regulating breathing appropriately, you are much better placed to make the correct choices and making sure that all your stakeholders are well informed, whether it’s a good scenario or whether it’s a crisis situation. At right time at right place to the right stakeholders.

Michael Larsen (25:46):
Excellent. So that brings us to D and D is “Discipline”. In other words, all of this stuff that we’re talking about, it’s all great metaphorically. It’s all great metaphysically. It’s psychologically very uplifting but it doesn’t do us any good if we don’t genuinely put it into practice. How do we make D the Discipline that it needs to be?

Manoj Gupta (26:10):
So D is to make sure that your ABC is in place. So the more you start practicing a and B and start making choices correctly D starts coming into play. It’s so interconnected that the more you practice AD you start becoming disciplined. And the more you start becoming disciplined, the more you starts practicing ABC. Here, what I say is the key aspect is being to that awareness zone practice, There are two exercises again, in the book in terms of raising the awareness level and strengthening the awareness level. And I call those two exercises, finger/wonder/key and imagination and introspection. That is I and I, these two exercises, if you practice regularly to strengthen and raise your awareness levels and the two exercises to regulate your breathing, the more solid your A and B are, it’ll make your choices much more informed, much more logical, and then comes D. When you start seeing the results, then you start practicing it more. And when you start practicing it more with discipline, then you start seeing much more results, which are positive. So that’s what is ABCD. Pretty closely interconnected, but there needs to be practice. They need to be implemented. It’s like a great basketball team can be really great on a piece of paper, unless, and until they start practicing and practicing it with a lot of discipline.

Matthew Heusser (27:53):
So D is making these ABC habits, automatic. It’s repetitive practice.

Manoj Gupta (28:01):
That’s right. It’s all about practicing, practicing, and practicing. The more you practice, the more you become disciplined on ABC, you’ll start seeing the results, but discipline, in terms of practicing, not just talking about it, not just reading about it, not just listening, to podcast, implementing it, and that discipline make you strengthening about your ABC.

Michael Larsen (28:26):
And again, this gets us to the fifth part here, which is again, not formally part of ABCD, but an add-on, and that is to Experiment. The idea is that, once we’ve got these core ideas down, we don’t really know how this is gonna play out until the rubber hits the road. More times than not, you are gonna discover, “Oh, I didn’t take that into account.” Or, “Oh, this is gonna take longer.” Or, “Hmm. I didn’t even consider this parameter when I was putting together my perfect list”, but you won’t know that unless you actively experiment with something. Make sense?

Manoj Gupta (29:08):
Absolutely! Whatever experiments we all perform into the laboratories or labs, they are into the ideal conditions. And you will find labs-related experiments are very well being performed. The real test applies, as you rightly said, when rubber hits the road. Whatever you practice or learn ABCD, it’s all about you experimenting in the real world. Having said, so you played as you prepare. So the better you are prepared in terms of raising and strengthening your awareness levels, the better you are prepared in terms of regulating your breathing, you will be better prepared in terms of making your informed choices that will equip you to experiment. Experiment, of course, may have some issues, some variables, some failures, but that will be a learning. That will be a correction. That will be something where you will be failing and you’ll be correcting and correcting and correcting and failing does not mean failure. Failing means learning. And that’s the learning process, which works. And that’s what is the E element in it, which is Experimenting and exploring and enjoying, practicing that ABCD while you’re on the go.

Matthew Heusser (30:25):
So I hear you about ABCDE. It makes sense. When I talk to people about this kind of method, I get a common reaction of, “This stuff is great. How can we get my manager to read it? The vice president needs to read it. They’re the ones set in the unrealistic schedules based, not on data, but on hopes and dreams. Maybe. And we can’t really do anything about that. So we’re handed a pile of goo that we have to try to scope into something good, and you really need to go talk to them.” How do you speak to the person who says that?

Manoj Gupta (31:01):
You know what, whatever you force has never been forceful. Now, you and I cannot even ask a toddler to do something which they do not want. So forget about your managers or vice president, or super bosses to read whatever you feel that they want to read. It’s all about you practicing. When you will start getting clarity about things, when you will start becoming aware, when you will start becoming about regulating your emotions, you will find that your ability to respond to any situation will be much at ease. That does not mean that you are always talking the good or the nice things. That means you are talking the correct things. And that’s what every manager, every VP, every boss wants to listen to. They are very happy to be challenged. They are very happy to be asked the questions, but many a times, we in our head, because of lack of that clarity or somewhere, the fears and factor, because of that emotional imbalance, as you are somewhere rightly said, the word chaos, I’m telling you, the law of nature is you weep. Everyone leaves you, you laugh, everyone flocks around you. You practice ABCD. You will be laughing. You’ll be smiling, and you will be finding people around you who will ask you, “Hey, what are you doing? And can I implement, can I do those things?” So don’t worry about people, your bosses, or your managers to read. You do. You implement that. And they will themselves ask you to read it.

Matthew Heusser (32:41):
Thanks. A lot. One thing that we’ve mentioned earlier is brand assurance, which is kind of a new term. It makes sense to me that testing could help protect a brand’s reputation, but you’ve done a lot more thought about this than I have. Could you elaborate a little bit on how testing can contribute to brand assurance?

Manoj Gupta (33:01):
Sure. If you go a few years back, the days of Waterfall methodology, where there used to be a sequential way of any applications to be developed. Right from requirement, design, low level design, to construction, and then unit testing to system testing, there are multiple phases. And before any go live, there were stages where bugs can be looked at, can be identified and releases used to be in production after a long lapse time. And the users were largely internal users because eCommerce was not as prevalent from the commerce perspective. Let’s fast forward and look at today’s world. Every application is sitting in cloud. That is to be accessed by any time, anywhere by any device. And the releases, which used to be monthly or quarterly earlier are becoming 10 times a day. So when you are talking of 10 releases a day, when you are talking of continuous development and continuous deployment, when you are talking of only channel commerce, when you are talking of users, sitting in any place across the world, accessing your application through any device at any time of the day, testing is directly linked to brand assurance, because any problem, if your application is down, if it’s performance is down, if there is issue, link to security, you have direct link or direct impact on the brand. It is very different to what it used to be. The quality assurance. Now it’s brand assurance and brand assurance is something going to further take a forward seat unto that.

Michael Larsen (34:51):
Fantastic. Manash I really appreciate you taking the time to talk with us about this today. And of course, we have a book to talk about. How can people get to know more about you? Where can they find out about you give a quick plug about the book?

Manoj Gupta (35:07):
Well, Michael people can reach out to me directly, or they can find me on my website, which is manojgupta.com. There are several resources, there are several articles linked to the book and my thinking. They can write to me. And I do speak on various forums, various B schools, you know, various corporates. They can write to me. I would be very happy to respond to any of the queries or any of the questions, which comes.

Michael Larsen (35:38):
Fantastic.

Matthew Heusser (35:40):
Okay. Thanks for being on the show Minaj. I know we’ve got more. We want to talk about, we’ll see if we can get you in again, sometime soon. I know we could talk for hours. So thanks for being on the show. Thanks for talking to us.

Manoj Gupta (35:52):
Thank you, Matt. Thank you, Michael, for having me in this show.

Michael Larsen (35:55):
Absolutely. Thanks for joining us.

Michael Larsen (OUTRO):
That concludes this episode of The Testing Show. We also want to encourage you, our listeners, to give us a rating and a review on Apple podcasts, Google Podcasts, and we are also available on Spotify. Those ratings and reviews, as well as word of mouth and sharing, help raise the visibility of the show and let more people find us. Also, we want to invite you to come join us on The Testing Show Slack channel, as a way to communicate about the show. Talk to us about what you like and what you’d like to hear, and also to help us shape future shows. Please email us at thetestingshow (at) qualitestgroup (dot) com and we will send you an invite to join group. The Testing Show is produced and edited by Michael Larsen, moderated by Matt Heusser, with frequent contributions from our many featured guests who bring the topics and expertise to make the show happen. Additionally, if you have questions you’d like to see addressed on The Testing Show, or if you would like to be a guest on the podcast, please email us at thetestingshow (at) qualitestgroup (dot) com.